Thanks to a glitch in the www.basketball-reference.com system, I was able to look at the stats of NBA players for ONLY the season where they were 1st Team All-NBA.
Here is the link -- http://bkref.com/tiny/P2nPn Hopefully the glitch will not be fixed.
One thing about evaluating players' careers is that most guys stay a little (or a lot) too long or start at age 18, so they just aren't very good for 2-4 years of their career. That gets tossed into the evaluation mix.
With data that ONLY identifies how the guys played during the years they were (subjectively) evaluated as an all-NBA guy, you can evaluate 1) how many years was the guy truly great; 2) how was he performing as a player during those years; and 3) how does he compare to other all-time greats.
At 14,700 minutes as a 1st Team All-NBA player, Charles Barkley has the 20th most minutes at that level. So I cut it off at Charles so we could get a top 20.
From 20 to 6 in MP as a First Team all-NBAer -- Barkley, Durant, Barry, Schayes, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Magic, Wilt, Cousy, Duncan, Bird, West, Petit, Baylor, Oscar
Most Minutes Played as an All-NBA player
Karl Malone
Kobe
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Most Minutes Per Game While 1st Team All-NBA
Wilt
Oscar
Baylor
West
Kareem
WS/48
Jordan
Wilt
Kareem and LeBron (tie)
Barkley
WS
Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Karl Malone
Wilt
Rebounds
Wilt
Petit
Kareem
Baylor
Malone
Assists
Magic
Oscar
LeBron
Cousy
West
Steals
Jordan
Kobe
LeBron
Bird
Karl Malone
Blocks
Duncan
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
karl Malone
Points
Michael
Karl Malone
Kobe
LeBron
Kareem
Effective FG%
Barkley
Shaq
Kareem
LeBron
Durant
True Sh%
Barkley
Durant
Magic
LeBron
Kareem
Friday, August 25, 2017
Wednesday, August 23, 2017
Kyrie Irving and Isaiah Thomas Trade -- Most Confusing Thing I Have Ever Seen
Why does the trade of Kyrie Irving to Boston for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and Brooklyn's unprotected #1 confuse me? Let me count the ways:
1) I cannot imagine the 1980s Celtics trading with the Sixers or the Bucks or the Pistons and certainly I cannot imagine the Celtics trading, for example, McHale or Parish to one of those teams.
I am sure that this has happened at some point outside of my memory, but I cannot recall a team as good as the Cavs trading a guy who has been 2nd team all-NBA to a key conference rival. Bizarre.
2) What does this say about Isaiah Thomas's torn hip socket? I mean, in 2003-04 Sam Cassell had over 12 Win Shares and was second team all-NBA, leading the Wolves to a #1 seed in the West. In the playoffs, he struggled with a mystery ailment, which the Wolves deemed "back spasms" and which eventually was diagnosed as a torn hip socket. The Wolves had to play without him and lost in the conference finals. Cassell before 2005 had WS seasons of 9.2, 8.5, 8.6, 9.6 and 12.1. After the torn hip socket, Cassell never had an 8 WS season and had only one decent year for the rest of his career.
If Isaiah Thomas suffers the same dropoff, and goes back to being a 4-6 WS player (he had 12.5 last year), what are you really getting for Kyrie? A good bench guy?
3) Jae Crowder and Ante Zizic?
Jae Crowder has long been the #1 "untouchable" Celtic because he is a "glue guy." I recall him mostly as the guy LeBron blows by every single possession of Cavs/Celts games. He is an OK player, but he is not supposed to be a key cog on a championship team. The fact that the Celts have held him out of deals so often is baffling to me.
Ante Zizic -- https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/06/16/meet-celtics-prospect-ante-zizic
Like most Euro big guys, it is impossible to evaluate them until they come and play in the NBA, but if this article is to be believed, the Celts gave away a top 10 level draft pick as a throw-in. If he is, instead, Jan Vesely, then it is a non-factor, but imagine if the Cavs had a decent big guy who wasn't like 6'8" (Tristan Thompson).
4) Why would the Celts Pick this Trade to Give Away that Brooklyn #1?
I am a Duke guy, I have good feelings for Kyrie's game. But I would have thought that the Celts had far better opportunities for this #1. Maybe they fear that Brooklyn won't be so awful and the pick may fall to a #5? Who knows - but this pick has LONG been the cornerstone of the idea that the Celts were going to dominate the league (or at least the East) for 10 years. Keep IT, Hayward, the crucial Jae Crowder, Horford, get a high pick (Tatum) develop Jaylon Brown and then BAM Porter or Bagley!!
Suddenly the pick goes to.........your arch rival? If Porter or Bagley becomes the next great thing and the pick went to the Cavs.....doesn't that mean LeBron probably stays around? LeBron always talks about how he loves Chris Paul and Melo and Wade and blah, blah, blah, but if he wants to play until 38 or so, doesn't he want to play with a YOUNG superstar whose game he can groom? He saw that Cleveland had good young players - went home. Do you want to ENCOURAGE LeBron to stay in your conference and keep beating you?
5) How does Isaiah Thomas fit with LeBron?
Maybe he is physically shot and will just split time with Derrick Rose. If so, no problem. But if IT is going to be AT ALL useful to you, he has to take a ton of shots and render LeBron worthless on 20-30 possessions a game. Is that what you really want?
6) The Old Celtics Roster, While Less Talented, Made More Sense With Brad Stevens Coaching.
The hardest thing about playing the Celtics was that they were very young and played hard for 48 minutes and always believed they would win. This belief carried them through despite their general lack of elite talent (Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder would jack threes down 17 in the 4th with as much confidence as if they were Curry/Thompson.Durant).
You now have a Kyrie-led squad. No one has ever accused Kyrie of outworking his opponent. Gordon Hayward isn't a grinder. You've now reduced the value of Jayson Tatum. Unless you are going to give him the LeBron role of distributing the ball to the scorers, what role, exactly, does he play now?
The whole trade makes absolutely no sense for anyone. I guess I'd have to give the advantage to Cleveland. They get a couple of assets that, if lightning strikes, may be awesome "gets" and they get a chance to keep LeBron around for 4-5 years.
Weird.
1) I cannot imagine the 1980s Celtics trading with the Sixers or the Bucks or the Pistons and certainly I cannot imagine the Celtics trading, for example, McHale or Parish to one of those teams.
I am sure that this has happened at some point outside of my memory, but I cannot recall a team as good as the Cavs trading a guy who has been 2nd team all-NBA to a key conference rival. Bizarre.
2) What does this say about Isaiah Thomas's torn hip socket? I mean, in 2003-04 Sam Cassell had over 12 Win Shares and was second team all-NBA, leading the Wolves to a #1 seed in the West. In the playoffs, he struggled with a mystery ailment, which the Wolves deemed "back spasms" and which eventually was diagnosed as a torn hip socket. The Wolves had to play without him and lost in the conference finals. Cassell before 2005 had WS seasons of 9.2, 8.5, 8.6, 9.6 and 12.1. After the torn hip socket, Cassell never had an 8 WS season and had only one decent year for the rest of his career.
If Isaiah Thomas suffers the same dropoff, and goes back to being a 4-6 WS player (he had 12.5 last year), what are you really getting for Kyrie? A good bench guy?
3) Jae Crowder and Ante Zizic?
Jae Crowder has long been the #1 "untouchable" Celtic because he is a "glue guy." I recall him mostly as the guy LeBron blows by every single possession of Cavs/Celts games. He is an OK player, but he is not supposed to be a key cog on a championship team. The fact that the Celts have held him out of deals so often is baffling to me.
Ante Zizic -- https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/06/16/meet-celtics-prospect-ante-zizic
Like most Euro big guys, it is impossible to evaluate them until they come and play in the NBA, but if this article is to be believed, the Celts gave away a top 10 level draft pick as a throw-in. If he is, instead, Jan Vesely, then it is a non-factor, but imagine if the Cavs had a decent big guy who wasn't like 6'8" (Tristan Thompson).
4) Why would the Celts Pick this Trade to Give Away that Brooklyn #1?
I am a Duke guy, I have good feelings for Kyrie's game. But I would have thought that the Celts had far better opportunities for this #1. Maybe they fear that Brooklyn won't be so awful and the pick may fall to a #5? Who knows - but this pick has LONG been the cornerstone of the idea that the Celts were going to dominate the league (or at least the East) for 10 years. Keep IT, Hayward, the crucial Jae Crowder, Horford, get a high pick (Tatum) develop Jaylon Brown and then BAM Porter or Bagley!!
Suddenly the pick goes to.........your arch rival? If Porter or Bagley becomes the next great thing and the pick went to the Cavs.....doesn't that mean LeBron probably stays around? LeBron always talks about how he loves Chris Paul and Melo and Wade and blah, blah, blah, but if he wants to play until 38 or so, doesn't he want to play with a YOUNG superstar whose game he can groom? He saw that Cleveland had good young players - went home. Do you want to ENCOURAGE LeBron to stay in your conference and keep beating you?
5) How does Isaiah Thomas fit with LeBron?
Maybe he is physically shot and will just split time with Derrick Rose. If so, no problem. But if IT is going to be AT ALL useful to you, he has to take a ton of shots and render LeBron worthless on 20-30 possessions a game. Is that what you really want?
6) The Old Celtics Roster, While Less Talented, Made More Sense With Brad Stevens Coaching.
The hardest thing about playing the Celtics was that they were very young and played hard for 48 minutes and always believed they would win. This belief carried them through despite their general lack of elite talent (Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart and Jae Crowder would jack threes down 17 in the 4th with as much confidence as if they were Curry/Thompson.Durant).
You now have a Kyrie-led squad. No one has ever accused Kyrie of outworking his opponent. Gordon Hayward isn't a grinder. You've now reduced the value of Jayson Tatum. Unless you are going to give him the LeBron role of distributing the ball to the scorers, what role, exactly, does he play now?
The whole trade makes absolutely no sense for anyone. I guess I'd have to give the advantage to Cleveland. They get a couple of assets that, if lightning strikes, may be awesome "gets" and they get a chance to keep LeBron around for 4-5 years.
Weird.
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