"LeBron James is Better Than Michael Jordan" Talking Points

As stated below, I have 48 hours to make a final decision, and I figured that as a public service I would provide worthwhile "Talking Points" so fans of either guy can argue from them.  Here are the pro-LeBron talking points to use:


1)  LeBron has played longer and been more productive over a longer period of time.  Look, do we say Gale Sayers was a better player than Walter Payton?  No.  Is it called the Johan Santana Award? No.  It is called the Cy Young Award b/c he had 511 wins.  We establish true greatness by consistent longevity.  James has played longer, he has achieved more wins (55 more than Jordan in the regular season, 33 more in the playoffs). 


Are we going to say that a guy who was banned from the league for gam.....I mean, who just flat out left the game to play baseball, is entitled to #1 position when James has, literally, more wins, more Win Shares, more playoff Win Shares, a higher VORP, a higher playoff VORP and more finals appearances?  Should we move Curry and Mikan to #1?  Is Bob McAdoo a top 15 player? 


Let's get real here, Jordan was good for 12 years, James has been good for 14 years, and he is still the #1 player in the game.


Jordan has 10X First-team all-NBA.  LeBron come June will have 12X.  All other things being equal, that is a 20% deficit Jordan has to recover from to be deemed "better."


2) James has won titles, or reached the Finals, with Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt and Ty Lue coaching him.  Jordan never won even a conference title without Phil Jackson coaching him.


Without Big Chief Triangle at the helm, Jordan went  - lost first round, lost first round, lost first round, lost second round, lost conference finals, [played for Phil], no playoffs, no playoffs.  Imagine if LeBron James had that sort of record with Mike Brown or David Blatt!  He couldn't show his face in public.


Phil, sans Jordan, went on to win 5 more titles.  Jordan w/o Phil?  Zero.  With LeBron it is the opposite - his coaches without him have enjoyed virtually no success while LeBron continues to enjoy great success.  This year, for example, saw the emergence of Larry Drew as a suddenly-great NBA interim coach.


Jordan has 6 titles, but are they really........Phil's titles?


3) James is a bigger man and can guard all 5 positions.  Jordan, for as great as he is, could never guard power forwards and centers.  James can guard 1-5 and do so at a level which allows his team to play whatever lineup is working at the time.  Jordan could not do that. 


4) James is a better rebounder.  This is particularly true when you consider only the playoffs.  In the playoffs, LeBron has had 8 or more rebounds in a game 148 times (4th best all-time).  Jordan?  57 games, good for a tie for 40th.  So, James has 30 more 8+ rebound playoff games than Hakeem Olajuwon, while Jordan has 4 more 8+ playoff rebound games than Jason Kidd.


5)  James is both a facilitator and a finisher.  Again, look at the playoffs.  8+ assist games in the playoffs - James has 86 games, 3rd best behind Stockton and Magic.  Jordan has 45, tied for 12th, 4 fewer than Mark Jackson.


James can both start your offense and score.  Jordan is primarily a scorer.


6) James did not need Scottie Pippen to win.  Jordan won zero titles without Scottie Pippen.  James has played with excellent players (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie) but in the 1-2 years before and after they played with LeBron, these players achieved no great level of success.  James comes in, wins a title, these guys get titles. 


The first year that Jordan left the Bulls, Pippen finished 3rd in MVP balloting and the Bulls won 55 games.  The previous year with Jordan?  57 wins. 


7) James was a more proficient 3-point shooter.  Despite taking 2 1/2 times as many as Jordan per game, James has shot a higher percentage.  Jordan had 8 seasons where he shot under 30% from 3.  James had 1 such season.


8)  James is the more versatile player, and by a lot.  http://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/07/nbas-greatest-all-around-players-james.html


If you want someone who will consistently fill the stat sheet for your team in every single category, you want James.  As the link demonstrates, it is not a particularly close call.


9) James defeated in the Finals teams that were far superior to any Chicago ever faced in the Finals.  Tim Duncan has one Finals loss - to Finals MVP James, 2013.  Golden State was 73-9, best record ever, they lost to Finals MVP James in 2016.  The Thunder had THREE NBA MVPs on their roster in 2012.  Lost in 5 games to Finals MVP James. 


If we are measuring the "best player" are we not evaluating the best teams he ever defeated?  I mean, Jordan played the great Celtics teams of the mid-80s -- always lost.  Played the great Pistons teams of the late 80s - always lost.  Eventually those teams aged out and someone had to replace them.  Congrats, Larry Bird by 1991 could barely walk without pain, but congrats on beating him.  Isiah Thomas left Indiana in 1981 - congrats on finally defeating him in 1991.  Bird beat Magic, Magic beat Bird, Wilt beat Russell, Russell beat Wilt.  Michael really just hit a soft spot.  Are we to believe the 1996 Sonics were a super team?


10)  Jordan, when saddled with poor teammates, never made the Finals.  Look at the 2007 Cavaliers.  Actually, if you are a fan of good team basketball, you probably want to avert your eyes.  The 3rd best playoff Cav was Daniel "Boobie" Gibson.  James was 3rd in the playoffs that year in Box Plus-Minus.  Gibson was 26th, Verajoa was 44th, Ilgauskas was 61st.  No other Cav even had a positive BPM.


They reached the Finals. 


And look at this year - James started the year hoping to be powered by Isaiah Thomas, Dwyane Wade and Derrick Rose, helped out by Jae Crowder.  Those 4 men combined for a Negative VORP.  Negative. That means that had you chosen 4 random "replacement players" (basically 4 Gerald Hendersons) they would have contributed more than these 4 guys.  The Cavs then got rid of those guys and acquired players who were not starring on Utah, the Lakers and Sacramento.  That crew is in the Eastern Conference Finals.


In the 2015 Finals, Cleveland took 2 games from Golden State.  Cleveland was coached by David Blatt and after Kyrie Irving was lost in Game 1 (a Cleveland loss), the ##2 and 3 performers for Cleveland the rest of the way were Timofey Mozgov and Tristan Thompson.  Delly played 30+ minutes per game.  He shot 28% from the field and 23% from 3.  His net rating was an insanely bad negative 32.   Again, this team won two games. 


James has always had the ability to do more with less than any player ever.  That is a skill set Jordan cannot match, and that is evident from Jordan's lack of success with that level of player as a teammate.