Well, try as I might to get the list down to 50, it appears that we have a 6-way tie for 46th worst Game Score (around Negative 4.8) , so we have to go with 51.
Here you go: http://bkref.com/tiny/Eno78
Congrats to the SUPER overrated...
Kristaps Porzingis for winning "worst Game Score of 2017-18" (pre-NBA Finals Edition)
by posting a ridiculously terrible Negative 8.5. In a home Knicks WIN(!!!) against the Celtics, Porzingis played 23 minutes, was 0-11 including 0-3 from 3-point range, 1 of 2 from the line. He did manage to put up 5 rebounds and 1 assist (to 2 turnovers and 4 fouls). 0 steals, 0 blocks.
Josh Jackson's terrible 22 minute effort in a loss to Houston narrowly lost out to Kristaps (only Negative 8.1), probably because Jackson was 2-2 from the line and only had 3 fouls.
Some other notable efforts:
-- Dennis Smith makes the list while actually making 5 shots and having 5 assists, but that was not enough to offset his 5-17 with 9 turnovers and 6 fouls.
-- Of the bottom 51 performances, only 3 were in the playoffs thus far
-- Trevor Ariza's recent Negative 5.3 (0 points, 0-12 including 0-9 from 3, did have some other positive stats)
-- Paul George against Utah (2-16, 6 turnovers, 5 fouls) for Negative 5.5
-- Tying with PG13, Bojan Bogdanovic (1-9, 0 rebounds, 3 turnovers, 5 fouls).
FOLKS APPEARING ON THE LIST MORE THAN ONCE
Dragan Bender 2x
Josh Jackson 3x
Kyle Kuzma 2x
Frank Ntilikina 2x
Garrett Temple 3x
Those are your Final 4, so, who did the worst in those sucky games?
Bender had the 6th and 44th worst games
Josh Jackson had the 2nd, 30th and 38th worst games
Kuzma had the 7th and 37th worst games
Ntilikina 8th and 20th worst
Temple had the 3rd, 17th and 46th worst games.
On the basis of more terrible games (3 versus 2), I give Temple the win - his average terrible game was the 22nd worst while Jackson's were, on average, the 23rd worst.
Congrats Garrett Temple.
Thursday, May 31, 2018
Wednesday, May 30, 2018
How Could Cleveland Possibly Win Against Golden State
The way to bet here is Cleveland to lose in 4 or 5 games. The Warriors have 4 all-star level players including two of the top 7 players in the league. The Cavs have LeBron and.....well, not much else (the concussed Kevin love being their second best player).
So, let's try to imagine a scenario for a Cleveland win.
1) LeBron needs to be the best guy 4 times, and by a lot. I really cannot see the Cavs winning unless BOTH of these things occur at least 4 times: LeBron gets a 35 point triple double every night shooting 50% plus AND Neither Durant nor Curry are particularly good.
LeBron's Finals losses involved the following:
2007 -- the famous picture is the Spurs simply swarming around LeBron with 4 guys. They basically demanded that others beat them, and the others could not do so (second best player Larry Hughes, while hardly a great player, was hurt in the Finals).
2011 - Mavs went zone and Dirk Nowitzki had insanely good Finals games. LeBron did not and deferred to Dwyane Wade - an enormous error.
2014 - Kawhi Leonard played well enough that :LeBron did not enjoy an enormous advantage. Kawhi named Finals MVP.
2015 - Iguodala gave LeBron enough problems and hit enough open shots that he was named Finals MVP (a ridiculous decision, but if the strategy is to try to limit LeBron, the guy who limits LeBron gets the award).
2017 - Durant plays LeBron even and wins the Finals MVP.
This strategy and result is similar to the Celtics' ability to have Bill Russell play Wilt down to below his average for points and rebounds and then the rest of the Celtics would outplay the rest of Wilt's teammates.
James cannot have this happen. He needs to go 35-11-11 and then hope that for 4 games these two guys are just OK.
2) Someone like Jordan Clarkson or Rodney Hood needs to play well. Look, Jordan Clarkson in the playoffs has been SUPER terrible. But here is some food for thought for you.
Klay Thompson regular season, "Game Score" 10 or better - 49 games
Jordan Clarkson -- 42 games.
There is no good reason for Clarkson to be SOOOO wretched as a player. Similarly, Hood has had some decent NBA seasons. He and Clarkson are both .070 or so WS/48 players. Why couldn't they have 15-20 points in 2 games? I mean, I am not expecting Kyrie Irving level stats, but geez, they should not be SOOOOO awful.
3) The Cavs' 2-6 Players Need to play up a little and the Warriors 3-7 Players need to play down a little.
Best WS players in 2017-18 for each team (with NBA overall rank for Win Shares)-
1) James #3 in the league
2) Durant #9
3) Curry #19
4) Love #46
5) Draymond #51
6) Klay #84
7) Green #117
8) David West #138
9) Korver #141
10) Tristan Thompson #209
If #1 above occurs (James badly outplays Durant and Curry) then the rest of the equation isn't that impossible. A good Love could outplay a disappointing Draymond, A good Jeff Green could play the bad version of Klay Thompson even. David West and Korver could offset each other for overall production.
Look at some other possibilities - is Larry Nance definitely worse at this stage of his career versus 400 year old David West?
Do we really think that Kevon Looney and Jordan Bell and Quinn Cook are that great?
Shawn Livingston didn't have much of a year. Is he WAY better right now than George Hill? Not that I have seen of late.
4) Some bad luck for GState -- For example, Iggy has to be out for the series. He absolutely cannot recover and be healthy for any games.
Also, maybe one of the Warriors' better guys can turn an ankle or get a medium severity injury that puts him out 2-3-4 games. If Curry steps wrong on his ankle and is out for Games 2-5, that makes a big difference.
Conclusion
Look, having this all happen require a near miracle. First of all, averaging 35-11-11 is an insane 'ask" of anyone. Then you need both GS guys who are top 7 NBA players to play just "OK," and then you need unexpected help from someone(s) who up until now has sucked, and you need your other guys to play 10% better and their other guys 10% worse, and then you need luck.
Is it doable? Well, in the 1975 NBA Finals the 48-34 Warriors were heavy underdogs to a Washington Bullets team that had won 60 games and eliminated the defending champion Celtics. Rick Barry averaged 29-5-4 and led the Warriors to a sweep of the Bullets, winning games by 6, 1, 8 and 1 points. So, I suppose it could happen.
That is, however, not the way to bet.
So, let's try to imagine a scenario for a Cleveland win.
1) LeBron needs to be the best guy 4 times, and by a lot. I really cannot see the Cavs winning unless BOTH of these things occur at least 4 times: LeBron gets a 35 point triple double every night shooting 50% plus AND Neither Durant nor Curry are particularly good.
LeBron's Finals losses involved the following:
2007 -- the famous picture is the Spurs simply swarming around LeBron with 4 guys. They basically demanded that others beat them, and the others could not do so (second best player Larry Hughes, while hardly a great player, was hurt in the Finals).
2011 - Mavs went zone and Dirk Nowitzki had insanely good Finals games. LeBron did not and deferred to Dwyane Wade - an enormous error.
2014 - Kawhi Leonard played well enough that :LeBron did not enjoy an enormous advantage. Kawhi named Finals MVP.
2015 - Iguodala gave LeBron enough problems and hit enough open shots that he was named Finals MVP (a ridiculous decision, but if the strategy is to try to limit LeBron, the guy who limits LeBron gets the award).
2017 - Durant plays LeBron even and wins the Finals MVP.
This strategy and result is similar to the Celtics' ability to have Bill Russell play Wilt down to below his average for points and rebounds and then the rest of the Celtics would outplay the rest of Wilt's teammates.
James cannot have this happen. He needs to go 35-11-11 and then hope that for 4 games these two guys are just OK.
2) Someone like Jordan Clarkson or Rodney Hood needs to play well. Look, Jordan Clarkson in the playoffs has been SUPER terrible. But here is some food for thought for you.
Klay Thompson regular season, "Game Score" 10 or better - 49 games
Jordan Clarkson -- 42 games.
There is no good reason for Clarkson to be SOOOO wretched as a player. Similarly, Hood has had some decent NBA seasons. He and Clarkson are both .070 or so WS/48 players. Why couldn't they have 15-20 points in 2 games? I mean, I am not expecting Kyrie Irving level stats, but geez, they should not be SOOOOO awful.
3) The Cavs' 2-6 Players Need to play up a little and the Warriors 3-7 Players need to play down a little.
Best WS players in 2017-18 for each team (with NBA overall rank for Win Shares)-
1) James #3 in the league
2) Durant #9
3) Curry #19
4) Love #46
5) Draymond #51
6) Klay #84
7) Green #117
8) David West #138
9) Korver #141
10) Tristan Thompson #209
If #1 above occurs (James badly outplays Durant and Curry) then the rest of the equation isn't that impossible. A good Love could outplay a disappointing Draymond, A good Jeff Green could play the bad version of Klay Thompson even. David West and Korver could offset each other for overall production.
Look at some other possibilities - is Larry Nance definitely worse at this stage of his career versus 400 year old David West?
Do we really think that Kevon Looney and Jordan Bell and Quinn Cook are that great?
Shawn Livingston didn't have much of a year. Is he WAY better right now than George Hill? Not that I have seen of late.
4) Some bad luck for GState -- For example, Iggy has to be out for the series. He absolutely cannot recover and be healthy for any games.
Also, maybe one of the Warriors' better guys can turn an ankle or get a medium severity injury that puts him out 2-3-4 games. If Curry steps wrong on his ankle and is out for Games 2-5, that makes a big difference.
Conclusion
Look, having this all happen require a near miracle. First of all, averaging 35-11-11 is an insane 'ask" of anyone. Then you need both GS guys who are top 7 NBA players to play just "OK," and then you need unexpected help from someone(s) who up until now has sucked, and you need your other guys to play 10% better and their other guys 10% worse, and then you need luck.
Is it doable? Well, in the 1975 NBA Finals the 48-34 Warriors were heavy underdogs to a Washington Bullets team that had won 60 games and eliminated the defending champion Celtics. Rick Barry averaged 29-5-4 and led the Warriors to a sweep of the Bullets, winning games by 6, 1, 8 and 1 points. So, I suppose it could happen.
That is, however, not the way to bet.
Thursday, May 17, 2018
Some National Basketball Association (or ABA) MVP Stats.
There is no basketball on tonight, so I did some work on NBA (or ABA) MVP Awards and top 2, 3, 4 and 5 finishes. I will assume LeBron finishes second in 2017-18. Here goes.
Most Wins
Kareem 6
Bill Russell and Michael Jordan 5
LeBron, Wilt 4
Dr.J 4 (counting ABA also).
Most 2nd places
Bird 4
West 4
Durant 3
James 3
Jordan 3
Most 3rd Places
Magic 4
Oscar, Kobe, LeBron 3
Most 4th places
Kareem 4
Pettit, Kobe, Karl Malone 3
Most 5th Places
West, Kobe, Oscar 3.
Most Top 5 finishes (finish 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5).
Kareem 15
LeBron 13
Kobe and Russell 11
Jordan and Wilt 10
Oscar, Magic, Doc, Karl Malone, Duncan 9
Most Top 4 Finishes
Kareem 13
LeBron 12
Russell 11
Jordan 10
Bird, Wilt, Magic 9
If LeBron finishes 2nd this year, as I believe he will, he will tie Bill Russell for the longest Top 4 run in NBA history (11 years).
Russell starting in 1958
1 2 2 1 1 1 3 1 4 3 4.
James starting in 2008
4 1 1 3 1 1 2 3 3 4 2
Most Top 3 Finishes
Jordan 10
LeBron 10
Russell, Kareem, Magic 9
Bird 8.
Most Top 2 Finishes
Jordan 8 (5+3)
Kareem 7 (6+1)
Russell 7 (5+2)
LeBron 7 (4+3)
Bird 7 (3+4)
Wilt 6 (4+2)
Doc 6 (4+2 includes ABA)
Most Wins
Kareem 6
Bill Russell and Michael Jordan 5
LeBron, Wilt 4
Dr.J 4 (counting ABA also).
Most 2nd places
Bird 4
West 4
Durant 3
James 3
Jordan 3
Most 3rd Places
Magic 4
Oscar, Kobe, LeBron 3
Most 4th places
Kareem 4
Pettit, Kobe, Karl Malone 3
Most 5th Places
West, Kobe, Oscar 3.
Most Top 5 finishes (finish 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5).
Kareem 15
LeBron 13
Kobe and Russell 11
Jordan and Wilt 10
Oscar, Magic, Doc, Karl Malone, Duncan 9
Most Top 4 Finishes
Kareem 13
LeBron 12
Russell 11
Jordan 10
Bird, Wilt, Magic 9
If LeBron finishes 2nd this year, as I believe he will, he will tie Bill Russell for the longest Top 4 run in NBA history (11 years).
Russell starting in 1958
1 2 2 1 1 1 3 1 4 3 4.
James starting in 2008
4 1 1 3 1 1 2 3 3 4 2
Most Top 3 Finishes
Jordan 10
LeBron 10
Russell, Kareem, Magic 9
Bird 8.
Most Top 2 Finishes
Jordan 8 (5+3)
Kareem 7 (6+1)
Russell 7 (5+2)
LeBron 7 (4+3)
Bird 7 (3+4)
Wilt 6 (4+2)
Doc 6 (4+2 includes ABA)
Wednesday, May 09, 2018
Your April 2018 "Hoops Maven Evaluation" #1 Best Player of All-Time Is.............Michael Jordan.
Having sat and considered the issue of whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is the "better" player for some time, I think it is time to just decide. If you look at the last two Blog entries below, you will see that I have come up with 10 arguments for each guy and against the other. If
you go to @hoopsmavenhm on Twitter and review my tweets from the last few days, you will see how nearly identical the men are in certain categories and how they are the most dominant players in the game, ever.
So why does Michael Jordan come out ahead in April of 2018, just as he did in April of 2015 (when James was 4th, behind Kareem and Wilt). Well, I first have to say that it is a very difficult decision. I would say that it has become sort of a 51-49% debate where some very compelling arguments can be made on each side. I believe the best arguments on behalf of LeBron are that he has played longer, has more All-NBA First-team selections, and is a more versatile player. I believe a very good argument could be made that if you basically picked a lineup and a head coach out of a hat but first had to choose LeBron or Jordan, you'd choose LeBron. He can do more with less.
Two things that really come through as you review the stats of each guy is that they are tremendously dominant in their era, and they are really in a class by themselves. After LeBron picks up his 12th All-NBA First-Team award in a couple weeks, he will have 186.3 Win Shares as a First-Team All-NBA player. Jordan had 186.7 Win Shares as First-Team All-NBA player ("FTAN"). https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=jLo5V James will have a Win Shares per 48 in that time period (as a FTAN) of around .260. Jordan was .283. Want to get even weirder? Jordan has 725 blocks, LeBron will have 723 blocks.
The two men's playoff careers are within a millimeter of one another. Again, James has played longer, so he has the advantage in counting stats and in gross Win Shares and VORP. Jordan enjoys an edge in playoff WS/48 of .255 to .246. If it is a valid thing to do to divide VORP by games played, James contributes .138 value per playoff game while Jordan is at .127. Virtually any playoff efficiency stats you can find, the leader is either James or Jordan. The two men absolutely DOMINATE any search for a stat that shows great playoff performance. If you look for some combination of stats that show playoff greatness, you will find that of the top 50+ such seasons, generally Jordan and James each has 8-10 and the next best guy has like 4.
I would argue that James and Jordan are virtually identical as playoff performers, with James perhaps statistically better by maybe 1%. So why would Jordan be #1 and James #2?
1) You cannot ignore the #1 Jordan argument, which is that Jordan played in the Finals 6 times and was the best player in the Finals 6 times and won 6 titles. In fact, he was the #1 offensive AND defensive player for his team (and better than anyone on the other team) 6 straight times. If you review ALL of the greatest players of all-time, you cannot say that about Wilt or Kareem or Duncan or Magic or Russell or Shaq or Bird or West or Oscar. Can you say that about LeBron? He was not the best player on the floor in 2007 or 2011 and he was great but a loser in 2014, 2015 and 2017. This is a very unique claim that Michael has as a player. It certainly counts for a lot.
2) On a regular season basis, Jordan was a better and more consistent player than James. Not by a lot, but by some. He basically is a .250 WS/48 player and LeBron is a .240 player. Basically Jordan is 4% better. Their absolute peak season is roughly the same (.322) but if you line up the raw Win Shares you will see that Jordan's Win Shares per season are superior to LeBron's for 11 seasons in a row
Best Year #1 +.9
+1.1
+1.8
+3.5
+3.1
+2.7
+2.5
+2.7
+ 2.6
+1.8
Best Year #11 -- +.3
Then James wins the last 4 seasons by a lot because Jordan has 4 crap seasons.
This is also evident when you search for seasons where guys had a lot of "Very Good" or "Great" games measured by Game Score. Jordan has the 6 best seasons for 22.5 or greater Game Scores http://bkref.com/tiny/ogk4l. He has the 5 best seasons for 30.0 or greater Game Scores http://bkref.com/tiny/VyAAv He had a season where he had 80 (!!!) Game Scores over 15 -- http://bkref.com/tiny/pK3X4 He has 4 of the top 5 of those seasons, and 5 of the top 10.
What this tells you is that Michael was frigging relentless. It is consistent with the talking point that he is an assassin who takes things personally and LeBron is more of an entertainer.
There is certainly nothing wrong with being an entertainer, but it does get reflected in your regular season stats. If I am going to criticize other players (like Shaq) for failing to give 100% full-out effort in the regular season, I have to acknowledge that James had years where he was capable of doing more (as is reflected in his playoff efforts) and he did not do so. In fact, one thing that is proof of this fact is that LeBron this year (15th season, age 33) had 69 Game Scores above 15 (his 4th most) and 51 Game Scores above 22.5 (his most ever). He was capable of that level of play for many years, but his concentration level went up this year.
3) Similar to #2 above, Jordan was a more productive and more relentless defender throughout his career. James is as good of a defender, but he has gone long stretches in his career where his effort on that end of the court did not reach his potential. That is reflected in his 5 all-D awards to Michael's 9. James has been a far better playoff defender in the playoffs (6 seasons of DRtg 101 or less, 3 such regular seasons).
4) Finally, while one could argue that this cuts both ways, Jordan has those two pretty crappy seasons in D.C. He played 5,000 minutes in D.C., roughly 1/8 of his career. He was NOT very good. He put up under 10 WS in 2 seasons combined. He had a WS/48 for the two years of roughly .087. He reduced his WS/48 from .274 for his career to .250.
It was a terrible decision. Jordan's gross raw numbers didn't go up enough to really justify the decline in his per minute numbers. Those two years (again, around 12% of his career) give us a distorted view of how good he was in his 13 seasons as a Bull. He was roughly 13-14% better in the regular season for WS/48 as a Bull versus LeBron for LeBron's career.
Now, could we say the same thing about LeBron's playing when he was 19-20 years old and ramping up as a player? Sure. But it really harms Jordan as a player to review his 41,000 minutes and not at least acknowledge that he was really stupid for playing that last 8,000 minutes and those minutes do not fairly reflect his value as a player and they bring his advanced stats, his shooting stats, and even his scoring stats to a point more unfavorable to LeBron's than they should be.
So, that's it. I should say in closing that this Blog entry perhaps credits Michael too greatly and diminishes LeBron unnecessarily. Certainly the argument could be made that James' teams were benefitted by him saving something for the post-season and that many of Jordan's relentless Game Score seasons resulted in little or no team success in the playoffs. But the point of this entry is to select someone and explain why. Therefore, the result is that Jordan's strengths and James' weaknesses have to be presented and argued in Michael's favor. Michael Jordan is still #1.
#2 Greatest Player, 2018 Edition - LeBron James
#1 Greatest Player, 2018 Edition -- Michael Jordan.
We will come back and evaluate again in 2021.
So why does Michael Jordan come out ahead in April of 2018, just as he did in April of 2015 (when James was 4th, behind Kareem and Wilt). Well, I first have to say that it is a very difficult decision. I would say that it has become sort of a 51-49% debate where some very compelling arguments can be made on each side. I believe the best arguments on behalf of LeBron are that he has played longer, has more All-NBA First-team selections, and is a more versatile player. I believe a very good argument could be made that if you basically picked a lineup and a head coach out of a hat but first had to choose LeBron or Jordan, you'd choose LeBron. He can do more with less.
Two things that really come through as you review the stats of each guy is that they are tremendously dominant in their era, and they are really in a class by themselves. After LeBron picks up his 12th All-NBA First-Team award in a couple weeks, he will have 186.3 Win Shares as a First-Team All-NBA player. Jordan had 186.7 Win Shares as First-Team All-NBA player ("FTAN"). https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=jLo5V James will have a Win Shares per 48 in that time period (as a FTAN) of around .260. Jordan was .283. Want to get even weirder? Jordan has 725 blocks, LeBron will have 723 blocks.
The two men's playoff careers are within a millimeter of one another. Again, James has played longer, so he has the advantage in counting stats and in gross Win Shares and VORP. Jordan enjoys an edge in playoff WS/48 of .255 to .246. If it is a valid thing to do to divide VORP by games played, James contributes .138 value per playoff game while Jordan is at .127. Virtually any playoff efficiency stats you can find, the leader is either James or Jordan. The two men absolutely DOMINATE any search for a stat that shows great playoff performance. If you look for some combination of stats that show playoff greatness, you will find that of the top 50+ such seasons, generally Jordan and James each has 8-10 and the next best guy has like 4.
I would argue that James and Jordan are virtually identical as playoff performers, with James perhaps statistically better by maybe 1%. So why would Jordan be #1 and James #2?
1) You cannot ignore the #1 Jordan argument, which is that Jordan played in the Finals 6 times and was the best player in the Finals 6 times and won 6 titles. In fact, he was the #1 offensive AND defensive player for his team (and better than anyone on the other team) 6 straight times. If you review ALL of the greatest players of all-time, you cannot say that about Wilt or Kareem or Duncan or Magic or Russell or Shaq or Bird or West or Oscar. Can you say that about LeBron? He was not the best player on the floor in 2007 or 2011 and he was great but a loser in 2014, 2015 and 2017. This is a very unique claim that Michael has as a player. It certainly counts for a lot.
2) On a regular season basis, Jordan was a better and more consistent player than James. Not by a lot, but by some. He basically is a .250 WS/48 player and LeBron is a .240 player. Basically Jordan is 4% better. Their absolute peak season is roughly the same (.322) but if you line up the raw Win Shares you will see that Jordan's Win Shares per season are superior to LeBron's for 11 seasons in a row
Best Year #1 +.9
+1.1
+1.8
+3.5
+3.1
+2.7
+2.5
+2.7
+ 2.6
+1.8
Best Year #11 -- +.3
Then James wins the last 4 seasons by a lot because Jordan has 4 crap seasons.
This is also evident when you search for seasons where guys had a lot of "Very Good" or "Great" games measured by Game Score. Jordan has the 6 best seasons for 22.5 or greater Game Scores http://bkref.com/tiny/ogk4l. He has the 5 best seasons for 30.0 or greater Game Scores http://bkref.com/tiny/VyAAv He had a season where he had 80 (!!!) Game Scores over 15 -- http://bkref.com/tiny/pK3X4 He has 4 of the top 5 of those seasons, and 5 of the top 10.
What this tells you is that Michael was frigging relentless. It is consistent with the talking point that he is an assassin who takes things personally and LeBron is more of an entertainer.
There is certainly nothing wrong with being an entertainer, but it does get reflected in your regular season stats. If I am going to criticize other players (like Shaq) for failing to give 100% full-out effort in the regular season, I have to acknowledge that James had years where he was capable of doing more (as is reflected in his playoff efforts) and he did not do so. In fact, one thing that is proof of this fact is that LeBron this year (15th season, age 33) had 69 Game Scores above 15 (his 4th most) and 51 Game Scores above 22.5 (his most ever). He was capable of that level of play for many years, but his concentration level went up this year.
3) Similar to #2 above, Jordan was a more productive and more relentless defender throughout his career. James is as good of a defender, but he has gone long stretches in his career where his effort on that end of the court did not reach his potential. That is reflected in his 5 all-D awards to Michael's 9. James has been a far better playoff defender in the playoffs (6 seasons of DRtg 101 or less, 3 such regular seasons).
4) Finally, while one could argue that this cuts both ways, Jordan has those two pretty crappy seasons in D.C. He played 5,000 minutes in D.C., roughly 1/8 of his career. He was NOT very good. He put up under 10 WS in 2 seasons combined. He had a WS/48 for the two years of roughly .087. He reduced his WS/48 from .274 for his career to .250.
It was a terrible decision. Jordan's gross raw numbers didn't go up enough to really justify the decline in his per minute numbers. Those two years (again, around 12% of his career) give us a distorted view of how good he was in his 13 seasons as a Bull. He was roughly 13-14% better in the regular season for WS/48 as a Bull versus LeBron for LeBron's career.
Now, could we say the same thing about LeBron's playing when he was 19-20 years old and ramping up as a player? Sure. But it really harms Jordan as a player to review his 41,000 minutes and not at least acknowledge that he was really stupid for playing that last 8,000 minutes and those minutes do not fairly reflect his value as a player and they bring his advanced stats, his shooting stats, and even his scoring stats to a point more unfavorable to LeBron's than they should be.
So, that's it. I should say in closing that this Blog entry perhaps credits Michael too greatly and diminishes LeBron unnecessarily. Certainly the argument could be made that James' teams were benefitted by him saving something for the post-season and that many of Jordan's relentless Game Score seasons resulted in little or no team success in the playoffs. But the point of this entry is to select someone and explain why. Therefore, the result is that Jordan's strengths and James' weaknesses have to be presented and argued in Michael's favor. Michael Jordan is still #1.
#2 Greatest Player, 2018 Edition - LeBron James
#1 Greatest Player, 2018 Edition -- Michael Jordan.
We will come back and evaluate again in 2021.
Tuesday, May 08, 2018
"LeBron James is Better Than Michael Jordan" Talking Points
As stated below, I have 48 hours to make a final decision, and I figured that as a public service I would provide worthwhile "Talking Points" so fans of either guy can argue from them. Here are the pro-LeBron talking points to use:
1) LeBron has played longer and been more productive over a longer period of time. Look, do we say Gale Sayers was a better player than Walter Payton? No. Is it called the Johan Santana Award? No. It is called the Cy Young Award b/c he had 511 wins. We establish true greatness by consistent longevity. James has played longer, he has achieved more wins (55 more than Jordan in the regular season, 33 more in the playoffs).
Are we going to say that a guy who was banned from the league for gam.....I mean, who just flat out left the game to play baseball, is entitled to #1 position when James has, literally, more wins, more Win Shares, more playoff Win Shares, a higher VORP, a higher playoff VORP and more finals appearances? Should we move Curry and Mikan to #1? Is Bob McAdoo a top 15 player?
Let's get real here, Jordan was good for 12 years, James has been good for 14 years, and he is still the #1 player in the game.
Jordan has 10X First-team all-NBA. LeBron come June will have 12X. All other things being equal, that is a 20% deficit Jordan has to recover from to be deemed "better."
2) James has won titles, or reached the Finals, with Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt and Ty Lue coaching him. Jordan never won even a conference title without Phil Jackson coaching him.
Without Big Chief Triangle at the helm, Jordan went - lost first round, lost first round, lost first round, lost second round, lost conference finals, [played for Phil], no playoffs, no playoffs. Imagine if LeBron James had that sort of record with Mike Brown or David Blatt! He couldn't show his face in public.
Phil, sans Jordan, went on to win 5 more titles. Jordan w/o Phil? Zero. With LeBron it is the opposite - his coaches without him have enjoyed virtually no success while LeBron continues to enjoy great success. This year, for example, saw the emergence of Larry Drew as a suddenly-great NBA interim coach.
Jordan has 6 titles, but are they really........Phil's titles?
3) James is a bigger man and can guard all 5 positions. Jordan, for as great as he is, could never guard power forwards and centers. James can guard 1-5 and do so at a level which allows his team to play whatever lineup is working at the time. Jordan could not do that.
4) James is a better rebounder. This is particularly true when you consider only the playoffs. In the playoffs, LeBron has had 8 or more rebounds in a game 148 times (4th best all-time). Jordan? 57 games, good for a tie for 40th. So, James has 30 more 8+ rebound playoff games than Hakeem Olajuwon, while Jordan has 4 more 8+ playoff rebound games than Jason Kidd.
5) James is both a facilitator and a finisher. Again, look at the playoffs. 8+ assist games in the playoffs - James has 86 games, 3rd best behind Stockton and Magic. Jordan has 45, tied for 12th, 4 fewer than Mark Jackson.
James can both start your offense and score. Jordan is primarily a scorer.
6) James did not need Scottie Pippen to win. Jordan won zero titles without Scottie Pippen. James has played with excellent players (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie) but in the 1-2 years before and after they played with LeBron, these players achieved no great level of success. James comes in, wins a title, these guys get titles.
The first year that Jordan left the Bulls, Pippen finished 3rd in MVP balloting and the Bulls won 55 games. The previous year with Jordan? 57 wins.
7) James was a more proficient 3-point shooter. Despite taking 2 1/2 times as many as Jordan per game, James has shot a higher percentage. Jordan had 8 seasons where he shot under 30% from 3. James had 1 such season.
8) James is the more versatile player, and by a lot. http://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/07/nbas-greatest-all-around-players-james.html
If you want someone who will consistently fill the stat sheet for your team in every single category, you want James. As the link demonstrates, it is not a particularly close call.
9) James defeated in the Finals teams that were far superior to any Chicago ever faced in the Finals. Tim Duncan has one Finals loss - to Finals MVP James, 2013. Golden State was 73-9, best record ever, they lost to Finals MVP James in 2016. The Thunder had THREE NBA MVPs on their roster in 2012. Lost in 5 games to Finals MVP James.
If we are measuring the "best player" are we not evaluating the best teams he ever defeated? I mean, Jordan played the great Celtics teams of the mid-80s -- always lost. Played the great Pistons teams of the late 80s - always lost. Eventually those teams aged out and someone had to replace them. Congrats, Larry Bird by 1991 could barely walk without pain, but congrats on beating him. Isiah Thomas left Indiana in 1981 - congrats on finally defeating him in 1991. Bird beat Magic, Magic beat Bird, Wilt beat Russell, Russell beat Wilt. Michael really just hit a soft spot. Are we to believe the 1996 Sonics were a super team?
10) Jordan, when saddled with poor teammates, never made the Finals. Look at the 2007 Cavaliers. Actually, if you are a fan of good team basketball, you probably want to avert your eyes. The 3rd best playoff Cav was Daniel "Boobie" Gibson. James was 3rd in the playoffs that year in Box Plus-Minus. Gibson was 26th, Verajoa was 44th, Ilgauskas was 61st. No other Cav even had a positive BPM.
They reached the Finals.
And look at this year - James started the year hoping to be powered by Isaiah Thomas, Dwyane Wade and Derrick Rose, helped out by Jae Crowder. Those 4 men combined for a Negative VORP. Negative. That means that had you chosen 4 random "replacement players" (basically 4 Gerald Hendersons) they would have contributed more than these 4 guys. The Cavs then got rid of those guys and acquired players who were not starring on Utah, the Lakers and Sacramento. That crew is in the Eastern Conference Finals.
In the 2015 Finals, Cleveland took 2 games from Golden State. Cleveland was coached by David Blatt and after Kyrie Irving was lost in Game 1 (a Cleveland loss), the ##2 and 3 performers for Cleveland the rest of the way were Timofey Mozgov and Tristan Thompson. Delly played 30+ minutes per game. He shot 28% from the field and 23% from 3. His net rating was an insanely bad negative 32. Again, this team won two games.
James has always had the ability to do more with less than any player ever. That is a skill set Jordan cannot match, and that is evident from Jordan's lack of success with that level of player as a teammate.
1) LeBron has played longer and been more productive over a longer period of time. Look, do we say Gale Sayers was a better player than Walter Payton? No. Is it called the Johan Santana Award? No. It is called the Cy Young Award b/c he had 511 wins. We establish true greatness by consistent longevity. James has played longer, he has achieved more wins (55 more than Jordan in the regular season, 33 more in the playoffs).
Are we going to say that a guy who was banned from the league for gam.....I mean, who just flat out left the game to play baseball, is entitled to #1 position when James has, literally, more wins, more Win Shares, more playoff Win Shares, a higher VORP, a higher playoff VORP and more finals appearances? Should we move Curry and Mikan to #1? Is Bob McAdoo a top 15 player?
Let's get real here, Jordan was good for 12 years, James has been good for 14 years, and he is still the #1 player in the game.
Jordan has 10X First-team all-NBA. LeBron come June will have 12X. All other things being equal, that is a 20% deficit Jordan has to recover from to be deemed "better."
2) James has won titles, or reached the Finals, with Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra, David Blatt and Ty Lue coaching him. Jordan never won even a conference title without Phil Jackson coaching him.
Without Big Chief Triangle at the helm, Jordan went - lost first round, lost first round, lost first round, lost second round, lost conference finals, [played for Phil], no playoffs, no playoffs. Imagine if LeBron James had that sort of record with Mike Brown or David Blatt! He couldn't show his face in public.
Phil, sans Jordan, went on to win 5 more titles. Jordan w/o Phil? Zero. With LeBron it is the opposite - his coaches without him have enjoyed virtually no success while LeBron continues to enjoy great success. This year, for example, saw the emergence of Larry Drew as a suddenly-great NBA interim coach.
Jordan has 6 titles, but are they really........Phil's titles?
3) James is a bigger man and can guard all 5 positions. Jordan, for as great as he is, could never guard power forwards and centers. James can guard 1-5 and do so at a level which allows his team to play whatever lineup is working at the time. Jordan could not do that.
4) James is a better rebounder. This is particularly true when you consider only the playoffs. In the playoffs, LeBron has had 8 or more rebounds in a game 148 times (4th best all-time). Jordan? 57 games, good for a tie for 40th. So, James has 30 more 8+ rebound playoff games than Hakeem Olajuwon, while Jordan has 4 more 8+ playoff rebound games than Jason Kidd.
5) James is both a facilitator and a finisher. Again, look at the playoffs. 8+ assist games in the playoffs - James has 86 games, 3rd best behind Stockton and Magic. Jordan has 45, tied for 12th, 4 fewer than Mark Jackson.
James can both start your offense and score. Jordan is primarily a scorer.
6) James did not need Scottie Pippen to win. Jordan won zero titles without Scottie Pippen. James has played with excellent players (Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie) but in the 1-2 years before and after they played with LeBron, these players achieved no great level of success. James comes in, wins a title, these guys get titles.
The first year that Jordan left the Bulls, Pippen finished 3rd in MVP balloting and the Bulls won 55 games. The previous year with Jordan? 57 wins.
7) James was a more proficient 3-point shooter. Despite taking 2 1/2 times as many as Jordan per game, James has shot a higher percentage. Jordan had 8 seasons where he shot under 30% from 3. James had 1 such season.
8) James is the more versatile player, and by a lot. http://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/07/nbas-greatest-all-around-players-james.html
If you want someone who will consistently fill the stat sheet for your team in every single category, you want James. As the link demonstrates, it is not a particularly close call.
9) James defeated in the Finals teams that were far superior to any Chicago ever faced in the Finals. Tim Duncan has one Finals loss - to Finals MVP James, 2013. Golden State was 73-9, best record ever, they lost to Finals MVP James in 2016. The Thunder had THREE NBA MVPs on their roster in 2012. Lost in 5 games to Finals MVP James.
If we are measuring the "best player" are we not evaluating the best teams he ever defeated? I mean, Jordan played the great Celtics teams of the mid-80s -- always lost. Played the great Pistons teams of the late 80s - always lost. Eventually those teams aged out and someone had to replace them. Congrats, Larry Bird by 1991 could barely walk without pain, but congrats on beating him. Isiah Thomas left Indiana in 1981 - congrats on finally defeating him in 1991. Bird beat Magic, Magic beat Bird, Wilt beat Russell, Russell beat Wilt. Michael really just hit a soft spot. Are we to believe the 1996 Sonics were a super team?
10) Jordan, when saddled with poor teammates, never made the Finals. Look at the 2007 Cavaliers. Actually, if you are a fan of good team basketball, you probably want to avert your eyes. The 3rd best playoff Cav was Daniel "Boobie" Gibson. James was 3rd in the playoffs that year in Box Plus-Minus. Gibson was 26th, Verajoa was 44th, Ilgauskas was 61st. No other Cav even had a positive BPM.
They reached the Finals.
And look at this year - James started the year hoping to be powered by Isaiah Thomas, Dwyane Wade and Derrick Rose, helped out by Jae Crowder. Those 4 men combined for a Negative VORP. Negative. That means that had you chosen 4 random "replacement players" (basically 4 Gerald Hendersons) they would have contributed more than these 4 guys. The Cavs then got rid of those guys and acquired players who were not starring on Utah, the Lakers and Sacramento. That crew is in the Eastern Conference Finals.
In the 2015 Finals, Cleveland took 2 games from Golden State. Cleveland was coached by David Blatt and after Kyrie Irving was lost in Game 1 (a Cleveland loss), the ##2 and 3 performers for Cleveland the rest of the way were Timofey Mozgov and Tristan Thompson. Delly played 30+ minutes per game. He shot 28% from the field and 23% from 3. His net rating was an insanely bad negative 32. Again, this team won two games.
James has always had the ability to do more with less than any player ever. That is a skill set Jordan cannot match, and that is evident from Jordan's lack of success with that level of player as a teammate.
"Michael Jordan Is Better Than LeBron James" Talking Points
As I make my final decision, which will come on or before May 10, I am reading a LOT of hate on LeBron James and on Michael Jordan on Twitter regarding who is the better guy and how the other guy just completely sucks.
Look, these guys are my ##1 and 2 players of all-time. Obviously neither man "sucks" as a basketball player. And it obviously is a very close race between the two for who is the "best player of all-time". With that said, let me provide Michael fans with 10 legitimate "Talking Points" for their argument, and I will (in a separate post) also provide 10 "Talking Points" for LeBron fans.
First, good ways to argue Michael Jordan is better:
1) He has 6 titles. LeBron has 3. If the point of playing the game is to win (which, it is a competitive sport, so shouldn't that be the entire point of the exercise?) then, if we assume all other things are equal, shouldn't the easiest tiebreaker be who won more? LeBron fans have to establish NOT that he is as good as Jordan, but, rather, that he is so substantially better that we can ignore this discrepancy.
Pretty simple argument.
2) Jordan has been the more consistent regular season player, by quite a bit. If you review the total Win Shares per season for each man, you will see that a typical Jordan season is around 1-1.5 WS better than a typical LeBron season. On a per 48 basis, James is about a 5% worse player in the regular season.
3) Jordan was recognized as first-team all-defense 9X to LeBron's 5. Jordan won Defensive Player of the Year, LeBron was only a runner up.
4) Jordan was a better and more consistent scorer. Jordan led the league in PPG 10X versus LeBron's 1X.
5) Jordan, while a high Usage player, played in a system where the ball stuck less in his hands. James' teams have tended to revert to a "23 Stand" halfcourt offense where LeBron holds the ball for 23 seconds and tries to do something at the way end of the clock. Jordan was not only a better scorer, but his game was prettier.
6) Jordan didn't constantly run around trying to find better teammates to help him win. He stayed in Chicago, gutted it out, and eventually won his 6 titles.
7) Jordan was a better free throw shooter. He shot .835 to James' .739. In an important situation, sending a guy to the line who shoots 10% higher is a great advantage,
8) Jordan was a more single-minded player. James is more of an entertainer, and he has a tendency during the regular season to play just well enough to win. Jordan played with a level of hatred and intensity 82 games a year that no one has ever matched. Jordan took a regular season loss as a personal affront. James appears to be the more well-adjusted person (and has certainly been a more vocal advocate for social justice, for example), but that also makes him a touch easier to play against in a meaningless February game in Sacramento than was Jordan.
9) Jordan was always, 100% of the time, the Finals MVP in any series he played in. While James has three, and one could argue he probably deserved 4 for the losing 2015 Finals effort, there is no denying that Jordan, every time he had a chance to win, was the best player and was recognized as such. In this regard, the 2007 and 2011 Finals are a black mark against James, who really did not play particularly great in either series.
10) Jordan left the game, sat 1.75 years, and when he returned, within 18 months he made his team 30 wins better. Jordan and James both have VORP seasons around 12 for VORP. Supposedly, if you have a 12 VORP, that means 32.4 wins for your team (VORP X 2.7 = wins you contribute). Jordan LITERALLY demonstrated that without him the Bulls in 1995 were headed for a .500 season and with him 2 years later they were 72-10. That is a 31 win improvement. No other player has conducted an experiment of that sort. It is an unbelievable tribute to Jordan.
There, those are 10 Talking Points for you.
Look, these guys are my ##1 and 2 players of all-time. Obviously neither man "sucks" as a basketball player. And it obviously is a very close race between the two for who is the "best player of all-time". With that said, let me provide Michael fans with 10 legitimate "Talking Points" for their argument, and I will (in a separate post) also provide 10 "Talking Points" for LeBron fans.
First, good ways to argue Michael Jordan is better:
1) He has 6 titles. LeBron has 3. If the point of playing the game is to win (which, it is a competitive sport, so shouldn't that be the entire point of the exercise?) then, if we assume all other things are equal, shouldn't the easiest tiebreaker be who won more? LeBron fans have to establish NOT that he is as good as Jordan, but, rather, that he is so substantially better that we can ignore this discrepancy.
Pretty simple argument.
2) Jordan has been the more consistent regular season player, by quite a bit. If you review the total Win Shares per season for each man, you will see that a typical Jordan season is around 1-1.5 WS better than a typical LeBron season. On a per 48 basis, James is about a 5% worse player in the regular season.
3) Jordan was recognized as first-team all-defense 9X to LeBron's 5. Jordan won Defensive Player of the Year, LeBron was only a runner up.
4) Jordan was a better and more consistent scorer. Jordan led the league in PPG 10X versus LeBron's 1X.
5) Jordan, while a high Usage player, played in a system where the ball stuck less in his hands. James' teams have tended to revert to a "23 Stand" halfcourt offense where LeBron holds the ball for 23 seconds and tries to do something at the way end of the clock. Jordan was not only a better scorer, but his game was prettier.
6) Jordan didn't constantly run around trying to find better teammates to help him win. He stayed in Chicago, gutted it out, and eventually won his 6 titles.
7) Jordan was a better free throw shooter. He shot .835 to James' .739. In an important situation, sending a guy to the line who shoots 10% higher is a great advantage,
8) Jordan was a more single-minded player. James is more of an entertainer, and he has a tendency during the regular season to play just well enough to win. Jordan played with a level of hatred and intensity 82 games a year that no one has ever matched. Jordan took a regular season loss as a personal affront. James appears to be the more well-adjusted person (and has certainly been a more vocal advocate for social justice, for example), but that also makes him a touch easier to play against in a meaningless February game in Sacramento than was Jordan.
9) Jordan was always, 100% of the time, the Finals MVP in any series he played in. While James has three, and one could argue he probably deserved 4 for the losing 2015 Finals effort, there is no denying that Jordan, every time he had a chance to win, was the best player and was recognized as such. In this regard, the 2007 and 2011 Finals are a black mark against James, who really did not play particularly great in either series.
10) Jordan left the game, sat 1.75 years, and when he returned, within 18 months he made his team 30 wins better. Jordan and James both have VORP seasons around 12 for VORP. Supposedly, if you have a 12 VORP, that means 32.4 wins for your team (VORP X 2.7 = wins you contribute). Jordan LITERALLY demonstrated that without him the Bulls in 1995 were headed for a .500 season and with him 2 years later they were 72-10. That is a 31 win improvement. No other player has conducted an experiment of that sort. It is an unbelievable tribute to Jordan.
There, those are 10 Talking Points for you.
Friday, May 04, 2018
Well, It Is Down to Between LeBron and Michael -- Here is the top 36 so far
36. James Harden (new to the list)
35. Stephon Curry (new to the list)
34. Steve Nash (-4 from 2015)
33. Gary Payton (+2)
32. Patrick Ewing (+1)
31. Dwyane Wade (same as 2015)
30. Bob Cousy (new to list)
29. Scottie Pippen (+7 from 2015)
28. John Havlicek (+4)
27. Chris Paul (-1)
26. John Stockton (-2)
25. Rick Barry (+2)
24. Elgin Baylor (-4)
23. Dirk Nowitzki (same as 2015)
22. Kevin Durant (+3)
21. Kevin Garnett (+1)
20. Charles Barkley (+1)
19. Julius Erving (same as 2015)
18. Moses Malone (-2)
17. Bob Pettit (same as 2015)
16. Hakeem Olajuwon (-1)
15. David Robinson (-1)
14. George Mikan (-5)
13. Karl Malone (-6)
12. Kobe Bryant (+6)
11. Oscar Robertson (+1)
10. Jerry West (+1)
9. Larry Bird (+4)
8. Shaquille O'Neal (+1)
7. Bill Russell (+1)
6. Magic Johnson (same as 2015)
5. Tim Duncan (same as 2015)
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (-1)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (-1)
Either Michael or LeBron
35. Stephon Curry (new to the list)
34. Steve Nash (-4 from 2015)
33. Gary Payton (+2)
32. Patrick Ewing (+1)
31. Dwyane Wade (same as 2015)
30. Bob Cousy (new to list)
29. Scottie Pippen (+7 from 2015)
28. John Havlicek (+4)
27. Chris Paul (-1)
26. John Stockton (-2)
25. Rick Barry (+2)
24. Elgin Baylor (-4)
23. Dirk Nowitzki (same as 2015)
22. Kevin Durant (+3)
21. Kevin Garnett (+1)
20. Charles Barkley (+1)
19. Julius Erving (same as 2015)
18. Moses Malone (-2)
17. Bob Pettit (same as 2015)
16. Hakeem Olajuwon (-1)
15. David Robinson (-1)
14. George Mikan (-5)
13. Karl Malone (-6)
12. Kobe Bryant (+6)
11. Oscar Robertson (+1)
10. Jerry West (+1)
9. Larry Bird (+4)
8. Shaquille O'Neal (+1)
7. Bill Russell (+1)
6. Magic Johnson (same as 2015)
5. Tim Duncan (same as 2015)
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (-1)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (-1)
Either Michael or LeBron
Greatest NBA Players -- Kareem is #4, Wilt is #3
Well, it is official, LeBron James has moved up my list from #4 to top 2.
It will either be LeBron James or Michael Jordan as #1 overall. And I still have not decided (I have a self-imposed deadline of 6 days).
I am not going to re-do all of my hard work from 2015 here. So, go to these links to review the greatness of Wilt and Kareem and most of the reasons I give Wilt the slight edge. https://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-second-greatest-nba-player-of-all.html
And
https://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-3rd-greatest-nba-player-of-all-time.html
So:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar #4
Wilt Chamberlain #3.
Here is a little taste of why Kareem is #4. Kareem lost Oscar in 1974. Kareem's years without Oscar or Magic (recall this is in Kareem's physical prime, ages 27-31):
1974-75 Bucks - 42-40, no playoffs
1975-76 Lakers - 41-41, no playoffs
1976-77 Lakers - 53-29, swept by Walton in playoffs
1977-78 Lakers - 45-37, lost to Jack Sikma in the playoffs
1978-79 Lakers - 47-35, lost to Sikma again.
Then Magic came. I am sorry, but if you are the equal of Wilt and LeBron and Michael, then you are not, in your physical prime, struggling so mightily for 5 years. You just aren't. This indicates to me that out of these 4 guys, Kareem was the least consistently dominant from a winning standpoint. When he got Magic, you then combined the ##4 and 6 players of all-time into one team and added a number of other very good players in supporting roles (Nixon, Scott, Wilkes, Worthy, Thompson, McAdoo, for example). That led to titles in 1980, 82, 85, 87 and 88.
It will either be LeBron James or Michael Jordan as #1 overall. And I still have not decided (I have a self-imposed deadline of 6 days).
I am not going to re-do all of my hard work from 2015 here. So, go to these links to review the greatness of Wilt and Kareem and most of the reasons I give Wilt the slight edge. https://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-second-greatest-nba-player-of-all.html
And
https://hoopramblings.blogspot.com/2015/04/the-3rd-greatest-nba-player-of-all-time.html
So:
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar #4
Wilt Chamberlain #3.
Here is a little taste of why Kareem is #4. Kareem lost Oscar in 1974. Kareem's years without Oscar or Magic (recall this is in Kareem's physical prime, ages 27-31):
1974-75 Bucks - 42-40, no playoffs
1975-76 Lakers - 41-41, no playoffs
1976-77 Lakers - 53-29, swept by Walton in playoffs
1977-78 Lakers - 45-37, lost to Jack Sikma in the playoffs
1978-79 Lakers - 47-35, lost to Sikma again.
Then Magic came. I am sorry, but if you are the equal of Wilt and LeBron and Michael, then you are not, in your physical prime, struggling so mightily for 5 years. You just aren't. This indicates to me that out of these 4 guys, Kareem was the least consistently dominant from a winning standpoint. When he got Magic, you then combined the ##4 and 6 players of all-time into one team and added a number of other very good players in supporting roles (Nixon, Scott, Wilkes, Worthy, Thompson, McAdoo, for example). That led to titles in 1980, 82, 85, 87 and 88.
Thursday, May 03, 2018
Why Kareem, Wilt, Michael and LeBron, In Some Order, Are the Top 4 Players Ever
Before we get into ranking them, it just needs to be said again. These are the 4 best guys, and I don't recognize there being any good argument that they are not the best 4 guys.
1) If you look at Most Win Share Seasons over 13, all the way up to 20+, it goes Wilt, Michael, Kareem, James. At times, The Mailman or Oscar gets in there, and Mikan shows up at the highest level (3 seasons over 20 WS). But it is always these guys.
2) basketball-reference.com has "Most Times Leading" https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_leading.html and "Most Times top 3" https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_top_3.html for all league-wide stats.
Reading that will lead you to see these 4 guys in the top 4 spots in field goals, PER, Win Shares, and Win Shares per 48. Wilt doesn't have sufficient box scores inputted into the computer, but for Box Plus-Minus and VORP it is LeBron Kareem Jordan or LeBron Jordan Kareem. If you look at the Top 3 page, even raw counting stats like points demonstrate my point.
First-Team All-NBA - Wilt 7, Jordan 10, Kareem 10, LeBron has 11 and in a couple weeks he will have 12.
MVP Wins - Kareem 6, Jordan 5, Wilt 4, LeBron 4.
Finals MVP - Kareem 2, Jordan 6, Wilt 1 (won in 1967, there was no Finals MVP awarded), LeBron 3.
MVP Award Shares (which measures how much of the vote you got in your career) -- Jordan/James/Kareem are 1-2-3. Wilt is #11, but you have to account for the fact that he won 4X and finished top 2 or 3 in years when he lost to Russell, Oscar and Kareem.
Career points - these guys go 1-3-5-7 and 7 is still playing.
Career Rebounds - Wilt and Kareem are 1 and 4
Career points per game -- 1, 2, 4 and 15 (Kareem played like 20 years, he couldn't maintain his scoring at the end).
PER - ## 1, 2, 5, 11
VORP 1, 2, 7 - Wilt has no VORP and Kareem is shorted 4 years of VORP. If you assume Kareem would get those 3-4 years back, it would go 1-2-3 for VORP, probably Kareem, LeBron, Michael.
Points+Rebounds+Assists -- They go 1-2-6, 12 (Jordan is 12).
It is difficult to rank these 4, but it is certainly not difficult to name these 4. They should be everyone's top 4.
1) If you look at Most Win Share Seasons over 13, all the way up to 20+, it goes Wilt, Michael, Kareem, James. At times, The Mailman or Oscar gets in there, and Mikan shows up at the highest level (3 seasons over 20 WS). But it is always these guys.
2) basketball-reference.com has "Most Times Leading" https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_leading.html and "Most Times top 3" https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/most_times_top_3.html for all league-wide stats.
Reading that will lead you to see these 4 guys in the top 4 spots in field goals, PER, Win Shares, and Win Shares per 48. Wilt doesn't have sufficient box scores inputted into the computer, but for Box Plus-Minus and VORP it is LeBron Kareem Jordan or LeBron Jordan Kareem. If you look at the Top 3 page, even raw counting stats like points demonstrate my point.
First-Team All-NBA - Wilt 7, Jordan 10, Kareem 10, LeBron has 11 and in a couple weeks he will have 12.
MVP Wins - Kareem 6, Jordan 5, Wilt 4, LeBron 4.
Finals MVP - Kareem 2, Jordan 6, Wilt 1 (won in 1967, there was no Finals MVP awarded), LeBron 3.
MVP Award Shares (which measures how much of the vote you got in your career) -- Jordan/James/Kareem are 1-2-3. Wilt is #11, but you have to account for the fact that he won 4X and finished top 2 or 3 in years when he lost to Russell, Oscar and Kareem.
Career points - these guys go 1-3-5-7 and 7 is still playing.
Career Rebounds - Wilt and Kareem are 1 and 4
Career points per game -- 1, 2, 4 and 15 (Kareem played like 20 years, he couldn't maintain his scoring at the end).
PER - ## 1, 2, 5, 11
VORP 1, 2, 7 - Wilt has no VORP and Kareem is shorted 4 years of VORP. If you assume Kareem would get those 3-4 years back, it would go 1-2-3 for VORP, probably Kareem, LeBron, Michael.
Points+Rebounds+Assists -- They go 1-2-6, 12 (Jordan is 12).
It is difficult to rank these 4, but it is certainly not difficult to name these 4. They should be everyone's top 4.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)